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DHARAMSHALA, India, 7 September 2005
Dharamshala, India, 7 September 2005 - Gyalo Thondup, the elder brother of the
Dalai Lama poses for a photo outside Kashmir cottage in Dharamshala.
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Without his name being mentioned, contemporary Tibetan
history would be incomplete.
The name of Gyalo Thondup, the
77-year-old elder brother of the current 14th Dalai
Lama, is part and parcel of the most
important events of recent Tibetan history.
The American CIA chapter in Tibet in the late 1950s to
early 70s, and the current process of dialogue that
started since 1979 between the Tibetan
government-in-exile and the Chinese leaders,
as he himself also says, started through him.
What exactly went wrong with the Tibetans that
we are rendered a stateless people?
It's very difficult to tell. What's wrong? What I
think is, after His Holiness the 13th Dalai Lama
passed away (in 1933), the Tibetans did not follow his
instructions properly. I think this was the initial
mistake. He had tried hard to establish Tibetan
identity by working hard between British India,
the Chinese Manchu Empire and also the Russian Czars.
I think in the contemporary situation, probably it
started this way.
If you talk about the long range, then so many things
had happened in the last over 1000 years or at least
the last 500 years.
Speaking of recent times, I think we, the Tibetan
population, made a mistake in not properly following the
13th Dalai Lama's instructions. The Tibetan
population, of course, has no responsibility, but the
Tibetan government — Tibetan officials, Tibetan lamas,
the nobility in particular. And then the British
exploited the situation during the absence of the 13th
Dalai Lama. And there was internal friction. So, I
think it probably started in that way.
Where do you see the Tibetan situation in 10
years, considering the current Middle Way Approach?
I think His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama's way of
thinking and his Middle Way approach and his teachings
— compassion, humanity, harmony — I think
it is going to be very effective eventually. Maybe not today,
but in the next 10 years
it will be realised more and more by the
international organisations and public opinion.
And particularly, I am quite sure, the
Chinese population in China, even the Chinese
government, will eventually realise what His
Holiness the Dalai Lama is talking about. It will not
only be useful for the Tibetans but it will be useful
even for the Chinese themselves.
Is the Middle Way Approach with its current
components achievable? If so, why and what are the
signs that it is achievable?
Signs are very clear. Wherever His Holiness goes
and whenever he moves, there is tremendous attention
by the international population and governments and
intellectuals including from Taiwan and China. That's
a sign.
Where do you see the Tibetan struggle after 20 or
so years? Here I am referring to a scene without His
Holiness the Dalai Lama in the picture. What do you
think will happen to the Tibetan struggle without him?
The Tibetan struggle will continue. It is not an
issue of the Dalai Lama. It is an issue of the Tibetan
nationality. The issue of Tibet is not the individual
Dalai Lama's interest. It is a fundamental interest of
the Tibetan nationality — the Tibetan nation and Tibetan
race. The problem is between the Tibetans and the
Hans. So the struggle will go on because it is a
legitimate right of the Tibetans. What they are
fighting for, what they are asking and what they are
demanding, it's legitimate.
Thop thang [he emphasises in Tibetan].
How do you see the situation after the current
Dalai Lama and coming of a 15th Dalai Lama?
I am a layman. I don't know. You should ask Tibetan
scholars and religious leaders. Whatever happens, the
Tibetan people will decide whether they need another
Dalai Lama or not. The people of Tibet have every
right to decide. But I think they will probably search
for one. If they think they don't want or need it,
maybe something will happen. I think you should ask this
question to His Holiness.
Where is the Tibetan struggle standing in
international politics today?
People are talking as if the Tibetan issue is politics.
It is not. Our problem is not politics, but it is a
desperate situation because what the Chinese
government adopted since 1949 is unreasonable.
For instance, like me: why did I leave Tibet? I had numerous
meetings with Chinese generals and representatives in
Lhasa persuading them to treat Tibetans as their
brothers and sisters. The Chinese leaders in Tibet in
1952 were not in a mood to hear the reasons. The
situation deteriorated and reached such a stage.
Otherwise Tibetans were not really going to go to the
extreme of running away to India.
It was a result of being pushed —
pushed to a point of no return.
I left in 1952. His Holiness and other hundreds and
thousands left in 1959. Individuals are still coming
out today. So due to unreasonable policies of the
Chinese communist government, the situation reached
such a stage. Tibetans have no intention to be involved
with international politics. We don't know the power
politics between India and China or international
community and China. We do not have the slightest
intention of involving in international politics.
It has become an international issue because the
international population sympathise with His Holiness,
with the problem of Tibet, and the plight of the
Tibetan situation.
Where is Tibet standing in the foreign policies
of countries such as the US, the EU and India?
This is very complicated because this so-called
power politics — I call it power friction — had a
triangle friction. There is the US and the West, including
Japan, there is the Soviet Union, and there is
China. So there was triangle friction in the last
so many years. But then something happened in this
friction. The Russians became a bit weaker. This
restriction will continue because there are different
ways of thinking. The West is hoping that China will have
a democratic form of government and rule of law. As
long as the differences remain, friction will
continue.
Fighting will not settle conflicts. They should be settled
through peaceful resolutions. A compromise between
these countries is very important. If they lead to
confrontation, we will suffer — many people will die
and there will be so much bloodshed and it will be so
costly also. Nowadays warfare is fought with money.
During a public talk recently in Mcleod Ganj, you
said you expect tangible actions from the US for
Tibetans.
What I tell my American friends is that they do not
see a long range of stability in central Asia,
including Tibet and China.
Whatever they did in the past is very important
because they are a very powerful country. But then
Americans are very vague. For instance, they are
saying that they encourage the Chinese to talk with the
Dalai Lama or his representatives. But the Chinese are
always saying their doors are wide open and Tibetans
are welcome for talks. This is very vague way of
American approach. They should take a positive line in
order to help to resolve this problem if they are
really interested. But Americans are not really very
reliable. I am experienced.
In the 1950s and 60s, America had promised us that they
would support us for many things, including independence
if we fought with China. But eventually America
betrayed us.
In 1969 and '70 Americans told me that
the Chinese communist government were making preconditions
with them in order to establish diplomatic relations with
the US. One, they must sever diplomatic relations
with Taiwan and second, they must stop whatever
assistance they give to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan
resistance. So, the betrayal of the US is very clear.
So, whatever Americans talk, I tell them: You people
are not reliable and you are very vague.
I prefer, since our problem lies with the Chinese
people and the Chinese government, that we should try to
deal directly with the Chinese because China is the
most important. America and India, of course, they are
important, but our problem lies with China. China
still remains in Tibet. Millions of our people are
under the Chinese government control. Therefore, it is
more practical and realistic for us to deal directly
with the Chinese government. That's why for the last 26
years I have been going to China talking to the
Chinese government.
Are you friends with Deng Xiao Ping?
Yes. Mr Deng Xiao Ping was the person who took the
initiative and asked me to pay him a visit. It was in
1979. Accordingly, I went and since then we have
established this dialogue and contact with the Chinese
government. Since then I had the opportunity to meet
him many times and many other Chinese leaders. I know
Hu Jin Tao also.
Yourself as the elder brother of His Holiness
the Dalai Lama, do you have influence on his
decisions?
No. I don't. I don't think I have any influence on
His Holiness. But whenever I meet His Holiness, I try
to tell him about the factual happenings. and factually
report what I saw. For instance, recently I made a
trip to Japan, Taiwan and the US after about 15 years.
When I returned I went to Ladakh and gave my full
report: what I saw, who are the people I met and what I
heard. I do that always. When I visit China, whatever
the messages the Chinese send I give him a full report.
And then he will decide with his officials. If he asks
my opinion, I express some of my opinions.
You were the person who brought the CIA to Tibet.
Can you tell us a bit how this happened? Where
did you meet the first CIA agents, and who were they?
I escaped from Tibet to India in 1952. The CIA probably
watched my movements from a far distance. They didn't
approach me until 1953. The first meeting took place
in Darjeeling where I was residing then. And then I
went to the US consulate in Calcutta and Delhi, and
than all sorts of things happened. I don't remember
the people I met.
That was a long time ago.
After the closure of the CIA-funded Mustang
guerrilla base, we hear about a funding embezzlement.
Do you know anything about that?
No.
Any funding for the Mustang group of
people went through our joint centres.
We had a joint centre in Delhi with Indians, Americans
and the Tibetans. The leaders of the centre were made up of
people from all these countries. The funding went
through that way and not through individual Tibetans.
All went though joint headquarters. It is all secret
to the public but I am disclosing some strange and
sensitive secret today. So, no wrongdoing out of the
funds.
How do you see Tibetan youths today and what is
your message for them?
I think Tibetans as a whole, inside or outside of
Tibet, I was very much encouraged. Tibetans are much
more alert, experienced and aware of the situation,
particularly the younger generation.
Our young people in Dharamshala are very good and
doing very well. I was very much impressed.
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